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cerasus

1st October 2019, 13:57
@Chris The "rule" of not ending a sentence with a preposition is also outdated and has become a 'myth' . Winston Churchill's famous comment : "This is the type of errant pedantry up with which I will not put."comes to mind.
It is OK to say (especially in chat or conversation) "What are you up to ?
or "Is this the file you are referring to ? It feels natural and is acceptable to write that way (unless one is writing a legal document !!)
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pigale

1st October 2019, 14:25

I know that many grammar rules that used to be widely followed in
the past no longer seem so important nowadays. BUT this
was NOT the point I was making! I was only pointing out that
the word 'agitated' is not a verb as such,

In fact (to) be 'endlessly agitated' is what is called an 'adjectival phrase' in which the adjective 'agitated' (which answers to the
question 'to be what?') is qualified by the adverb 'endlessly'.

One of its synonyms happens to be a verb, just as 'to begrudge'
is the verbal synonym of the phrase 'to be GREEN WITH ENVY', in
which 'green with envy' also answers the question 'to be what?'

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orson

1st October 2019, 15:07
"Agitated" can be an adjective or a verb.

I am agitated. Here it is a participle derived from the verb "to agitate" and it is functioning as an adjective.

The problem had agitated me. Here it is a past participle, functioning as a verb.

The workers agitated for higher wages. Here it is a verb; simply the past tense of the verb "to agitate".

To be endlessly agitated. Here the verb is "to be" and "agitated" is a participle acting as an adjective. A word would have to come between"to" and "be" for there to be a split infinitive.
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pigale

1st October 2019, 15:14
Thank you Orson - I entirely agree with all that you say!
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orson

1st October 2019, 15:23
Merci, pigale.
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jigjag

1st October 2019, 15:49
Malone, Grunger
I went to the market café on Saturday. I usually have poached egg on toast, but the 5-item breakfast for £2.95 caught my eye.
I ordered 2 sausages, an egg and 2 hash browns. “What would you like for the fifth item?” the waitress asked.
“I think I have ordered 5” but she replied “No, 2 hash browns is one item.”
“In that case, I’ll have a third sausage, please” but she said “Sorry, only 2 sausages are allowed on a 5-item breakfast.”
“I would really like half a grilled tomato, but is it one item or half?”
“Are you trying to be funny?” was the terse reply.
“Actually, I’ll just have what Paul gives me.”
When the breakfast arrived, there were 2 sausages, an egg, 2 hash browns, black pudding, 2 rounds of toast and a cup of tea. I make that 9 items but they insist it is 5. I might try the 10-item breakfast next week.
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grunger

1st October 2019, 15:56
Orson

Thank you for your analysis. It seems I used the wrong terminology, but my point was that "Be agitated" = "seethe". The clue requires the end to be removed, but putting the "endlessly" between "be" and "agitated" is wrong, as which word does "endlessly" apply to?

So it may be good English, but for me, the clue is inaccurate.
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malone

1st October 2019, 16:21
Grunger, I knew exactly what you meant about that clue not working, and I still feel the same now! Even though I can be uber-pedantic about some things, I tend to switch off a bit when 'adjectival phrases' and even 'split infinitives' are mentioned - they bring back too many memories of school.

Jigjag,

Thanks for the market café update. The confusion over the number of items, and indeed, what constitutes an 'item' was old hat to me. My friend and I occasionally have breakfast in Wetherspoons. She always swaps her Quorn sausages (the work of the devil, if you ask me) for extra beans and that's straightforward enough. I have heard other customers seeking to do swapsies. I forget all the details, but there are various rules such as 'you can swap the tomato for an extra hash brown, but not for bacon or a sausage' and 'you can swap your hash browns for an egg, but not for black pudding'. It made me glad I usually just have toast and coffee.
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jigjag

1st October 2019, 17:57
Thanks Malone

I have swapped items in other cafes but I dont know if it is allowed in the market. They do 5-item, 10- item and all-day breakfasts. I suppose people ask for swaps in that.

I am afraid I dont like Wetherspoons. A couple of cosy pubs in town have been converted into large open-plan monstrosities. My friends like the cheap beer and food though, so I have to put up with it occasionally. The strategy has been a great success, of course.

Grunger

I agree with you about the clue. I am not bothered about the English but you cant split "be agitated" if you want "seethe" I liked "scintilla" featuring on consecutive days with completely different clues
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malone

1st October 2019, 18:08
Jigjag,

Although I'm not a huge fan of Wetherspoons, the ones I frequent (infrequently) are in really nice old buildings. One is a former cinema and it's spectacular - I love having my coffee and toast in the balcony, way up in the gods.

I'm not very keen on cosy pubs - well, not if they're so 'cosy' that they end up being crowded and noisy. I'd like them if there were very few customers...but then those places might not last long! I don't drink (alcohol), but my friends are always impressed with the range of wines, beers, gins etc in Wetherspoons.

Your 'swapping' tendencies might come a cropper in many US diners. Lots of those have signs saying 'no substitutions'.

PS I've always liked the word 'scintilla'.
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