Crossword Help Forum
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Smellyharry: I fail to see how something can be at once "true", "incorrect", and "nonsensical". But you're right about "true". Meanwhile, if you're going to put what you think I said in quotation marks, please take the trouble to copy and paste it, rather than making up your own mangled version.

Less uninterestingly, I'm surprised that some solvers are so unwilling to countenance guesswork. Given a blank-grid crossword, I cold-solve as many clues as I can on a first pass, then see if I can guess how they might fit into a grid. Don't you? If you do, what's different about this puzzle?

I think one difference with this puzzle was that the entries were composed of several parts and in some cases single letters. I remember an excellent puzzle a couple of years ago: an almost blank grid where all the entries were 6 letters. That required considerable guesswork at first but it came together beautifully, a classic example of a true 'cross-word'.

I agree entirely with Iratus about the grid fill and the necessary element of guesswork to get started. I almost always start a Listener in pencil, recognising that the final entries may change (whether by the endgame or to make progress with a carte blanche). In practice, I was able to make steady progress on the grid fill without having to change any of my tentative pencil entries.

On 25A, yes if you hazard that there are only 2 parts contributing to the grid entry, then in theory there are only 4 possible answers. But we also know all grid entries are real words/names and on that basis there is only one feasible answer (in BRB at least). For me, there is no point in worrying about the possibility of there being 3 contributing parts to 25A until I have discovered that the only feasible 2-part entry doesn't work with other crossers, something which never arose. Doing that also helped me to pencil in which of the 2 feasible grid entries to pencil in for 22D (again hazarding that was also a 2-part entry). And that in turn gave me an idea about what to expect of 20A etc.

Careful tracking of what parts of clue solutions I'd used where was of course also important, but all-in-all the puzzle gave me enough to keep making progress and be rewarding.

Iratus - you are exactly right. It may be logically correct that a particular entry COULD have 100+ answers; but practical commonsense makes it fairly obvious that you have to assume otherwise.
As you did, I made assumptions as the grid was filled. I didn't have to change many of my tentative answers - maybe about 3. IMO that's the sensible pragmatic approach.

I think most of us, on reading that long opening first sentence of the preamble, panicked but chuckled at the same time. I know I did !! An extremely hard slog, true enough, but worth it in the long run once you, tired but happy, cross that finishing line ! And without those helpful but carefully measured hints on this forum I would NEVER have completed this brilliant puzzle !! I look forward to the next one, jigsaw or no jigsaw, from Artix.

The debate about 25a illustrates the peculiar features of this crossword. 25a has one possible 2-part entry, I think. 18d has two. But that assumes the first letter of the first double clue starts the entry. However, since the possible 2-part entries do not share a common letter suitably placed, one must be made of 3 parts. But which? It's difficult to determine whether it's 18d because it has two unchecked letters and a third letter that belongs to an unclued entry, which is more unchecked letters than is normal. 22d is some help in narrowing the possibilities. That, at any rate, was my reasoning. 22d helped with 20a but 25a did not help much with other entries, and it was some time before I found the answer to 18d.
That's more uncertainty, I think, than is usual. Some solvers obviously liked the degree of juggling involved, others not. All seem agreed, though, that it was a hard puzzle.

There's also a difference between simple guesswork (empty grid) and testing an assumption (or hypothesis for those in white coats). One of mine was that 25a could be two-piece to make the puzzle accessible. Vain hope, perhaps, but I make a few of these each puzzle and never feel short-changed if they're wrong.

Primeprospect captured the experience of reading that first sentence well. And, from Mack's helpful post, I can now see that there were a couple of moments where I dodged real conundrums.

For me, the skill of the construction was in the way that the remnants confirmed or denied my assumptions. Or perhaps it just looked that way. Each answer being split into two rather than one-to-three parts kept this fair.

I just marvel at the different ways people approach these things.

Apologies for being a bit late to the party but this one took me much longer than usual.
I see there are different opinions about this puzzle but for me it was a very good one. Difficult from the start but regular moments of progress which encouraged me to keep going. I completed the grid 2days ago but it has taken several revisits since then to iron out the final loose ends.
I try not to criticise the easier puzzles - I understand they have a place - but I sometimes find them disappointing and a real challenge like this can make my week.
Thank you Artix.

I'm a long way behind. Stuck on
Composer of a slip ...
At regular intervals ...
Unfinished kitchen unit ...
(and I've hardly got anything in the grid despite having almost all the other answers!)
Could a generous person help please?

Composer: anagram of 3 words and one final letter; the definition is the whole clue but particularly the first 4 words.
At regular: also an anagram, of the last two words minus 3 letters indicated elsewhere in the clue; definition is 'birds'.
Unfinished: 4-letter kitchen item minus last letter plus anagram; definition is the last 3 words.
Hope this helps.