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quisling

19th November 2019, 16:17
Do you count an M rotated to a W as drunk or sober? A recognisable but different letter ...
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kirky

19th November 2019, 16:47
in column 10 I only have 2... the S in row 5 and the N in row 11... which one have i missed murky?....ah ..is it the m/w in row 4 ..i didn't count that?
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buzzb

19th November 2019, 17:03
'buzzb - I couldn't find a mirror for the rotations.'

Clearly all you need to verify the rotations is to simply turn your sheet upside down.
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buzzb

19th November 2019, 17:16
turast: Your list -

1. The "flips" & "rotation" only work if the letters are lower case. b & d OK B & D not.

Of course the misprints are all, deliberately in lower case. Instead of complaining, we should be congratulating Yorick on coming up with a completely original idea for misprints.

2. Does this mean that entries are in lower case?

No, and it's clear that only upper case works for a number of the entries. E.g. the letter E can only be symmetric in upper case;the letter I cannot work flipped in lower case. That is hardly difficult to infer.

3. East West flip would suggest that these entries are all across & reversed

No it does not; an EW flip of a down entry is perfectly reasonable.

4. North South flip would suggest that these entries are all down and reversed

Ditto

5. NORMAL would suggest that these entries are either across or down and in the right order, BUT, they would not undergo a TRANSFORMATION.

Correct

6. ROTATION looks like it can only apply to the individual letters, although LOINS / LIONS might "rotate" within a putative grid.

The instructions say to apply to the entry as a whole. So ROTATION is equivalent to turn your paper upside down and entering the answer.
7. Are individual letters transformed according to the flips and rotation?

No, the transforms are to the entries as a whole. This of course affects individual letters but depending on the transform and the direction of entry MAY reverse the order of the letters. A rotation reverses the entry. A NS flip reverse the entry if and only if it is a down; an EW flip reverses acrosses but not downs.

8. If we are right about the misprints, this means that
- GROUP 1 entries are normal (no transformation)
- GROUP 2 entries (b for p) are NS flip
- GROUP 3 entries (b for d) are EW flip
- GROUP 4 entries (d for p) are rotation (either across or down)

Correct (but this does not mean that Group 2 is restricted to down, etc)
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buzzb

19th November 2019, 17:18
No M transforms to W or vice versa
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drxx

19th November 2019, 17:24
Thanks for the tip buzzb - I wondered why turning the mirror round didn't work.
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drxx

19th November 2019, 17:40
I think the idea is fun but I'm not sure it has integrity. It works by sleight of hand, really - and the only way we can arrive at an unambiguous solution is the condition given in the final part of the preamble (the 2 groups 'rule'). Without this there would be no reason why we shouldn't have an inverted 'U' in the across unclued entry - we'd just be following a convention by not doing so.
There are many, many instances in the grid where an inverted/twisted letter 'clashes' with a letter treated differently - we just can't see it because of the symmetry.
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diver

19th November 2019, 22:27
Yes, I agree with you, Murky - 35.
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murky

20th November 2019, 08:06
Quisling, in my enumeration earlier I counted the M as drunk. I don't see how it could not be so. In both crossing answers, for different reasons it appears as W, though in my case it doesn't because my M's do not look like inverted W's. Any inverted M is an inverted M, not a W.
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quisling

20th November 2019, 09:17
Thanks for the clarification, murky, it's appreciated. My U's don't have vertical symmetry either, as it happens, so I just wanted to avoid any potential confusion. I agree your number, FWIW
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