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Crossword Help Forum
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pka1

18th November 2019, 21:44
Another one still ploughing through the clues. Coming here has helped immensely, but has also brought on a sort of GGM. A good grief moment, wondering what chance I would have of filling the grid in cleanly. Still I might learn some new Scottish words in my remaining clues. Thanks to all, I think.
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unclued

18th November 2019, 21:46
Thanks quisling.
One useful trick I am using is to hold the grid up to a light. Viewing from the back of it makes it so much easier to check the correct orientations of the altered letters.
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unclued

18th November 2019, 21:48
....obviously for this to work, it helps to have a printout and not the newspaper!
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drxx

18th November 2019, 21:57
That's a good idea, unclued. Unfortunately, I am working on the grid in the newspaper, and just entering the answers demanded a huge leap of faith at the outset (and a very light touch with the pen).
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buzzb

19th November 2019, 01:50
Use a mirror...
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turast

19th November 2019, 06:39
I love the Listener, and I've been solving and entering for more years than I care to remember. I really look forward to starting it on a Friday. I particularly enjoy the primary function of a good crossword, which, in my view, is the solving of the clues. This week I cold solved them all and enjoyed the process immensely.

I posted earlier that I had filled the grid, but that it didn’t seem to comply with “the rules”. In other words, a complete switcheroo of my original grid was required. I was fuming that there is so much room for interpretation. The problems I have with the grid fill are many and various.
1. The "flips" & "rotation" only work if the letters are lower case. b & d OK B & D not
2. Does this mean that entries are in lower case?
3. East West flip would suggest that these entries are all across & reversed
4. North South flip would suggest that these entries are all down and reversed
5. NORMAL would suggest that these entries are either across or down and in the right order, BUT, they would not undergo a TRANSFORMATION.
6. ROTATION looks like it can only apply to the individual letters, although LOINS / LIONS might "rotate" within a putative grid.
7. Are individual letters transformed according to the flips and rotation?
8. If we are right about the misprints, this means that
- GROUP 1 entries are normal (no transformation)
- GROUP 2 entries (b for p) are NS flip
- GROUP 3 entries (b for d) are EW flip
- GROUP 4 entries (d for p) are rotation (either across or down)
As a starting point, I've been told I have the incorrect orientation, so NONILLIONS must go in column 12.
I've just spent some time "reversing" my grid. I then went on the Help Forum, and I see, to my horror that it IS a case of carrying out the transformations on individual letters. I confidently predict, therefore, that when the results come out, this puzzle will have by far the highest failure rate. Furthermore, I just can't be bothered to go through the whole thing again. I've been successfully doing these and sending them in for years, and this is the first time, I can honestly say that a setter has managed to defeat me using the twin weapons of utter boredom and mind-numbing frustration. Well done, Yorick. You did not set my table on a roar.

Good luck with the grid everyone. I hope you have more patience than I have.
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planks

19th November 2019, 07:32
I am travelling in Asia at the moment and have just logged in, what for me is, the early afternoon. I have nearly cold solved all the answers as was entering the grid under the misapprehension that the whole word was flipped rather than individual letters. The latter seems like a boring slog unless some magical revelation occurs as a result. Should I give up now and enjoy the delights of Indonesia or continue with the Listener..... hmmm, tough choice. TTFN and thanks for the hints given so far.
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melbourne

19th November 2019, 09:40
I disagree with Turast over most of his points. Firstly, the rubric does not state that all groups involve transformation - indeed, there is an implication that only three do. The flipped letters are remarkably constrained, only used in flipped form where that form does not clash with other answers.
I found the final entry remarkably straightforward. Starting wit the group that required less thought, I simply entered the clues in order and was delighted when they did all fit together.
A most remarkable construction, and one I thoroughly enjoyed.
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turast

19th November 2019, 09:57
I'm very pleased that Melbourne and others have enjoyed this puzzle as much as they say they have. I, however, think that if you are having to use a mirror to write in and check your entries, or, as one poor soul did, shine a light through their copy, then you are straining the limits of your solvers' patience (certainly in my case) beyond breaking point. I stand by my "success rate" prediction, and I feel really sorry For Mr. Green, who will have to check all the flipping rotated solutions he gets. I strongly believe there will be far fewer than normal, but I hope I am proved wrong- as I said, I love the Listener crossword.
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theragman

19th November 2019, 11:03
I am with you all the way, turast, with this puzzle. The cold solving of all the difficult (but fair) clues and fitting them all into the grid was quite sufficient to make this an enjoyable crossword and that is all I have done with complete satisfaction. To go any further and make a nonsense out of the completed grid is in my view a complete waste of time. Having solved all the clues, turast, you should have no difficulty fitting them all into the grid in some form or other, having started with a reversal of the entry in the final column.
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