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Quisling, I think the capital "O" is the indicator that it's a lift-and-separate clue. Otherwise, nobody could possibly interpret it that way. I am fairly convinced that this is what Philistine intended, because it is too much of a coincidence that the clue works so precisely in the way I described.

It works apart from "-" instead of "–" but that might be the editor's fault.

I’m not sure Philistine is as worried as you think about giving such indicators. Two examples of his in the last year or so:

Grandfather isn’t initially at all moved (8) PALATIAL

Span location (4) SPOT

So on previous form he could have left it as “Lover — or lover”. I agree with Jono that lower case l as part of a word indicating reversal of what precedes it is insufficient.

Personally think 10a is the Capital plus O as other explanation seems a bit convoluted. But maybe Philistine will let us know.

Those are good examples, but in both of them, the lifted part is either a separate word in its own right or a capital letter. Expecting people to break "lover" apart without any other indicator seems too much of a stretch. That's why I think he used the capital "O" here to mark the separation point.

On the other hand, I'm not sure what "lover with a capital O" means. Is that a phrase anyone uses? I just asked Gemini, and it said people might say "lover with a capital L" but not "O", although it does suggest a cheeky use of "O" that I won't explain. Of course, I don't consider AI authoritative but it's clearly not that common a phrase.

I guess our only hope is that Philistine explains for himself. I will be interested to see what 225 comes up with.

rainman, I think your parsing @44 is ingenious, but it never occurred to me...I'm a cryptic crossword autodidact who learned by doing dailies for years (unaware of 225 - before the Times started a paywall I *did* look at "Times for the Times") and don't even know what "lift and separate" is. 🤣

My instinct is that it's too elaborate to be the setter's intent. I studied statistics and absorbed George Box's preference for parsimony. Same instinct leads me to quisling's parsing. [There's potential for a "parsing" / "parsimony" pun but I'll spare the forum.]

Geeker, I too am trying to pick things up as I go along, and any terminology I use is guessed from reading 225. In fact, Roz on 225 recommends using "Playtex" instead of L&S when you are splitting one word apart instead of a phrase, but I don't know if it has caught on. Quisling gave a couple of great examples of either L&S or Playtex clues.

I am still clinging on to my theory, even though people appear sceptical. I have seen a number of clues where a dash is used to represent the two letters we have here and midweek crosswords in the Guardian regularly have even more convoluted clues. I might have expected this particular one to come from Paul, who requires lateral thinking to the nth degree, but then he would probably have used "O" in the way Gemini suggested.

To be convinced I am wrong, I would need someone to show examples of "lover with a capital O" being used in the wild. It's an ingenious idea and much simpler than my own, but it's not a phrase I've ever seen.

Well what a long thread all about 10ac. I got the answer, but couldn't parse it, so moved on.

At first I thought this a relatively easy crossword, but I ground to a halt just after 4.00pm with six still to get. I've been taking a break to wrap presents and arrange greenery, but came here to see if there are any hints for the six I haven't got - just one for 4d. I've forgotten what a Nina is. I've two possible answers for 23d. It would help if I'd got 25ac. Any hints would be welcome as I need to finish my ironing.

The other four are in the north west corner. I shall work on them a bit longer, but I'll be back.

I assume the holiday alphabetical will be on Christmas Eve. I'm grateful it wasn't today. I've too much to do for Christmas.

Hi Roof,

25a - definition is "where to find lots. Most of the anser is written in the clue, and that goes around usual abbr. for "uniform"

23d - 3 letter "my" goes inside/'into' 2 letter abbr. for "Sierra Nevada" - definition is "disdain"

Hi Roof, good idea to change the subject. 4d is a reverse hidden. The answer to 25a is the first four words. In 23d, the middle three letters are given by the first word.

Hi Everyone,

Just wanted to wish you all a Happy Christmas