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buzzb

5th June 2025, 18:35
Why not 5 and 4 2/5?
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smellyharry

5th June 2025, 21:17
Ha. Fair comment. Another valid option....
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oldwolfie

5th June 2025, 23:15
Thanks!
33a: I'm feeling very silly about this now!
38a: I'm still missing something here. (I've got the answer OK though.)
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smellyharry

5th June 2025, 23:20
The first four letters are a weight with a side changed.
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elpenor

6th June 2025, 00:15
It's fair to say I picked the wrong weekend to be busy. Got there in the end though, thanks KevGar.

Overall I enjoyed the challenge but I found it a bit of slog towards the end, being left with a chain of anagrammed answers remaining and wishing I knew more about oxen. I thought the endgame was a little imprecise - it seems unclear exactly what I'm meant to highlight. I trust to the charity of the marker.

I think my biggest gripe would be some of the clueing, though, which I thought was pretty fast and loose (7a godfather?, 26a on staff?, 38a def?). There were some great clues in there as well though. And more than a couple of Chambers gems.
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oldwolfie

6th June 2025, 10:40
Thanks Smellyharry.
How could I have been so dense! I had got so completely wedded to a reading with `verso' that I couldn't see past it. I am grateful for your patience.
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mack

6th June 2025, 14:11
Having read all the debate about what to highlight, I think there are a few practical points.
Firstly, the 5 to highlight are not known by the term 'Five'. So the first trap to avoid is going for the better known 'Five'. There are two 'Fives' in the title because there are two sets to consider, not two sets to highlight.
Secondly, the setter was limited in the number of letters in the message by the number of clues. KevGar was more or less forced to use 'more' instead of 'rather'.
Thirdly, the central cell resolves which set to highlight, since it could belong to both. Choosing one option excludes the other option.
Fourthly - and this is stretching it a bit - the triple-letter cell bottom right (which otherwise seems unconnected to the theme) with two adjoining cells is an anagram of the central cell's given name.
Finally, I have noticed that, when there has been debate in previous puzzles about what to highlight, the published solution tends to be the most straightforward of the solutions mooted.
But then again, I may be completely wrong. Time will tell.
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candledave

6th June 2025, 15:00
For me, the second point is the weakest here. KevGar could have easily come up with a clearer message for your version namely SHADE x NOT y

For me the use of MORE THAN was merely a way of disambiguating the middle cell.

Anyway, good luck - time will tell as you say
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crates

6th June 2025, 15:47
Having just visited in passing - can't revisit all previous points but agree point 2 was because of setter's restiction to use 'rather' but see one of the definitions I have is '"More than" can mean several things including.... as a replacement, meaning "instead of" or "in preference to".

But point 1 ... are they not known documented as the 'mighty five' or 'mighty handful'? ...
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smithsax

6th June 2025, 20:32
Bottom line is that 5 is more than 0, 1, 2, 3, or 4. While either 0 or 4 are the most likely intended correct answers any submitted puzzle which highlights 5 of the first set including a correctly filled centre square and none, or any number up to four, of the second set should be marked as correct.
Furthermore any combination where the highlighted elements include more of the first set than the second set is correct - which is clearly not what was intended.
More than was a poor choice for the second and third words.
Perhaps “and human” would do instead of “more than”.
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