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While I've come to expect bile from some specific quarters, I was quite surprised to see Keepatit weighing in on the open day v Meursault (didn't grieve his mother, doesn't even know when she died - must be a complete scoundrel...). How bravely the wolves bay when in a pack...

How carefully do people really read the comments ? Apparently you read all the way through the unnecessarily verbose #19 (apologies, it had been a long day, I'd returned from visiting a friend with aggressive MND and been medicating myself).

But the crux of the comment was that I noted that some people were expecting more help than this forum was giving, both last week and this : if you read all this so carefully, why didn't you also read #11 above ?

It seems perfectly clear that there were quite a few solvers this week who would happily have saved some of the hours cold-solving and got on with entering the grid...if they'd known where to start.

So, well done to Planks with #79, and if I was any additional help to solvers in sparing some of an unnecessary ordeal, then I'm happy for that.

keepatit - I don't think it's helpful to nitpick over the terms we're using here - what constitutes 'help' in this context is what we are debating (and I only used the term 'spoiler' because that is what you choose to call it, it certainly doesn't spoil my enjoyment of a puzzle). But if we are going to nitpick, perhaps you can give me your opinion of an ANSWERbank thread that doesn't offer any answers.

You seem inclined to use emotive language - 'fundamentalists' for example. I don't consider myself a fundamentalist simply because, like orson, I've developed a way of giving answers that relies on capital letters being used. I think it's far more fundamental to impose limits on threads where people are asking for help, simply because you've had a head start solving a puzzle and you want to stay ahead of the pack. That is where the answerbank thread lost its way.

This thread is not simply a competition to see who posts first, it is very much a forum offering help. Bananabean started this thread, unlike you, he/she had not completed the puzzle when asking for the help DJA kindly provided. Your particular interest here appears to be a desire to limit the kind of help being offered. If you succeed will it not become your 'fiefdom'?

Friday solvers have a head start when it comes to dictating the tone of the Listener thread on this forum, and that could be why it's becoming a less helpful place to visit. You should start your own thread every Friday, I will steer well clear of it

Drxx, to answer a few of your points:

I didn’t introduce the word spoiler to the discussion, I was only quoting you.

I didn’t start the puzzle on a Friday. I merely pointed out that one could post a full solution on a Friday and most people wouldn’t be that happy. So you are barking up the wrong tree if you think it’s about being first.

I agree that Answerbank is a misnomer for the threads on that site, and I said in my post that solvers are not well served by it which is why they come here.

I don’t seek to limit what people post at all. Give full solutions if you like. I merely expressed the hope there might be a thread where people who wanted hints rather than explicit answers could find them.

Maybe fundamentalist carries an unnecessarily charged meaning I was not intending. I meant it in the sense of holding the view that there should be no restriction to any help given on any thread.

I have said enough. If my views are out of kilter with the majority I’ll leave, and wish you all happy solving.

And there are those who are conveniently blind...

Do you remember when some kids, someone said that they were American school kids, came onto the forum asking for the whole puzzle ? I mean they didn't even want to look at the clues...they just had a project, to beg, steal or borrow the solution to that week's Listener puzzle. So what did I say then ? Forgotten ?

And haven't I also at some points said that it is too early to give a crucial answer ? But you don't remember those times at all. So blinded...

And doesn't the nuance of 'help' change from a straightforward puzzle week to a complex, nuisance puzzle week ? How heretical for a fundamentalist to speak like this...

Must read comments more thoroughly...

keepatit - a last word on this from me too.

I'm sorry if I misrepresented you but I'd be surprised if you hadn't noticed the ****SPOILER ALERT**** comment in the post immediately before yours. I certainly didn't introduce the term into our discussion and, as I've said, my enjoyment of a puzzle is never spoiled by the help given here (whereas you have suggested it spoiled the puzzle for you).

The point I make about Friday solvers remains, whether you're one of them or not. I remember the same thing happened to the answerbank thread - it started with a little bit of censorship and escalated to a complete blackout. I wouldn't want the same thing to happen on this forum, that is my only concern.

I think the point you make about posts giving information that hasn't been requested is valid. I believe an explanation for why this happened has now been given.

Happy solving to you too.

Drxx, thanks for that. My enjoyment of puzzles is unaffected by spoilers, as I never come to the site till I’ve finished. I was arguing, perhaps unnecessarily, on behalf of others. I too would hate to see such a censorship. I want the puzzles to be enjoyed by as many people as possible, and that clearly requires hints and sometimes explicit answers to be given. We differ only on how best to keep as many people satisfied as possible. Best wishes. My taxi is waiting ...

We are very nearly in complete agreement keepatit.
Have a safe journey.
.

An interesting discussion. I usually look at this forum after completing the puzzle to see how others have got on. I occasionally offer advice if others have not beaten to me to it.
My family and other commitments mean I have difficulty finding time to commit to solving so it is usually Tuesday or Wednesday before I complete it.
Occasionally if I hit a block and think I will run out of time that week I look in before completing to speed up the solve. I read the thread from the start until I find a post that helps get things moving again - then stop reading.
So my preference is for a graduated response with light hints early in the thread and for specific responses to be reserved for later.
That said - has anybody got a response to my question at #146?

snithsax, I replied on #149

Obviously smithsax, apologies