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Exactly, ollie! I fear we shall never get a reasonable answer to any of your questions.
One point I forgot to make earlier, which brings us back to thesame problem: the person calling himself "Contendo" on AB looked in on this thread, but instead of answering any of our criticisms here, chose to report back like a spy on "their" thread, claiming I was "paranoid" !!! Do we need any more proof of their unreasonableness? You might as well say the Jews have a persecution complex. I know it's only a crossword, but there are certain matters of principle at stake here, and I for one refuse to make any more foul compromises. The "echo" has been comforting.

I suppose the problem is that resuming the discussion here doesn't really achieve much. I stand by my comment in the removed thread, as humour seemed a not unreasonable way to defuse a tense situation. Unfortunately, it seems that things spiralled out of control anyway.

I'm not all that convinced the AB club has to change all that much, actually. In the first place, all that seems to have happened to those people who do have grievances is that they come here instead. The number of Listener solvers thus remains roughly unaffected, and that number is all we should care about really. And as I've mentioned before, even that club has been helpful in recruiting new members. Although, before I leap to its defence too much, I should mention that in my early days as a solver there appeared to be some level of hostility to the idea of anyone getting help to solve a Listener at all, and that I was not worthy of the challenge. Well, I took that in the end as incentive to prove such people wrong, and the culprits (there were only a couple) have long since vanished anyway.

If there is a problem with the AB-style, though, then it seemed that this was leading naturally to a reduction in membership. The number of posts has been reducing over time, from days when 100+ was quite common to now, when 50 is a large-ish total. Really that should be allowed to take its course. At least, then, there would be no petty fighting. And perhaps in time people would migrate to this community. And then very possibly the debate would begin afresh, because there is also the matter of how the online help, within the public domain, can be reconciled with the maintenance of annual solver statistics.

In the long run, what bothers me the most is the manner of the collapse. Sudden, brutal and acrimonious. This has helped no-one; at the very least, I hope it has no effect on the actual solver numbers. It very possibly could, because while the Listener solving exercise ought to be fairly solo, talking about it afterwards is a community thing. Destroying that community, here or at AB, is undesirable.

A very simple compromise is possible. The AB community could be allowed to continue discussing the puzzle in the way they so choose, and people asking for help there can either do so in separate AB threads, or be referred to this forum. Or, as has happened before, some private solving help can be offered.

Very interesting, jim. The problem with "private" help of course is that one cannot simply give one's private e-mail address away publicly without certain dangers. At least you have answered in a conciliatory tone.

Ollie's post was released while I was writing the previous one. Quick replies here:

a) Perhaps it is, but if people want to massage their ego then that's up to them, really.
b) The Answerbank isn't always about direct answers. Example: the various questions that are evidently taken straight from homework tasks. People offering answers in those cases tend to do something like answering one of a related set, or providing half a solution, or if it's an essay-type question, providing one or two references. At any rate it is at the users' discretion how much, if any, of an answer a question receives.

c) I don't think the AB community is above criticism. However, as has been made clear there and here, once a thread moves from criticism to "flaming", then it tends to be removed. Even public forums have rules.

d) Frankly I find those hints irritating, but I think there's little or no overlap between the community who post and the moderators, so such hints tend to survive.

As to the "sneering". Well, it certainly is going on here, with talk of cliques and egos and goodness knows what else. Actually, though, remarks about "the other site" have gone on over at AB too, in reference to this one. They aren't appropriate there either.

One final point (I hope). It occurs to me, as a Listener solver these 30 years, that the subtle discussions on AB help the more experienced solvers to ensure a correct submission just as much as the more open comments made here help others to finish, and that it is the former who are the more likely to submit entries, primarily to appear high on the statistics (which I topped just once, so know the urge) rather than do the Listener purely for amusement. I gave up submitting a decade ago.

Ollie, I think you've hit the nail on the head with the comment about the statistics. I feel sure that most of these bitter comments would disappear if there weren't any. It's the competitive streak that's in most of us I'm afraid. I wonder when JG's retiring ? 1500 and counting ! I can't imagine anyone else wanting to do it or at least not for 30 years. Happy solving everyone.

Yes, Ollie and Arctic Penguin, I think this is right. Though maybe a lot of the bad feeling they've attracted comes down to more than just their rules. However competitive you are, it's no excuse to be bad-mannered or disrespectful. Funny how the people who feign class have the least of it.

Just for information. There is a thread on AB called Listener threads, started by Jim. In it he makes various unbalanced and false statements. I reported the thread yesterday and today made a comment on the thread refuting Jim's allegations. That comment has been removed. We are indeed at the edge of darkness.

I never saw that post. You can reply here, if you like. In the meantime, that is how I saw it at the time, and I make no apology for what I said. At the very least, it was wrapped up in a conditional clause.

Both sides have made their arguments. I think now we should just leave it, and get back to discussing the Listener, however we see fit.

I don't think people here want to "discuss" the Listener, they want to know how to solve it. I always found it most amusing that there was a group on a site called "The Answer Bank" which was determined not to give any answers. I also found them irritatingly smug as there was no way of validating or disproving their claims to have completed the puzzle on Friday which seemed to be their main concern.
Retournons a nos moutons, as Ruthrobin might write: any hints on how to enter the letters in this puzzle would be most welcome.