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Just joined to see how it's going (I'm finding it hard but am confident). On the drxx-based discussion, I'm with Norah. Her first duty is to the setters, and I don't feel this point has been sufficiently grasped by some commenters. But in any case, she's the ref - let's not start behaving like latter-day McEnroes.

I’ve been following the exchanges relating to drxx with some interest, and amusement! But I would be sorry to see him go, and I hope that a rapprochement can be found.

Regarding this puzzle, my usual beef is that I can get a complete grid, but suffer from the GWIT syndrome when it comes to finishing off. This time, I can’t even solve many clues, and cockie’s suggestion (post 9) that the A answers are not even real words just puts the lid on it! So I shall just have to put this aside and wait for next week.

Respect to those who have solved it!

I too find it very disappointing that this forum, which has "help" in its title, should deprive its members of the single most helpful contributor. Deleting posts is totally understandable but an immediate and permanent ban seems like overreaction.

Durban, I'm struggling with your statement that Norah's first duty is to the setters. Perhaps I've misunderstood what this forum is, but I thought that it was a place where solvers could come for a bit of help.

Yes, some of us post our reactions to the puzzles. In turn, that might lead setters to drop in and see how their puzzles have been received. But I thought that there was at least one other forum specifically for that.

I have huge admiration for anyone who can produce puzzles that are considered worthy of a Listener. Some I might find "too easy", while aspects of others might be "unfair" or "too hard". Like drxx, I am much less enamoured of the quarterly numerical puzzles, but that's not the fault of the setters of those puzzles. Nor is it their fault if I do a tedious Excel bash instead of spotting the clever approach.

In turn, I'd like to think that a setter would understand all of that, particularly on a forum that is not obviously intended to provide feedback. I was always an optimist...

Finding this week's puzzle very tough, so reassuring to come here and find others are in the same boat!

I have (I think) solved 12 clues from Set B and 3 from Set B but nothing entered in the grid yet.

I'm pretty new to the Listener - this is only my 5th or 6th attempt - so parsing the preamble is still a workout for my brain. Though I've managed to complete all except Twisted Sister, even the numerical puzzle which at first glimpse might as well have been in Elvish or Klingon.

In this case - the fact that the clues are given in normal order presumably means that within each set all the Across clues are listed in ascending order first and then the Downs?

As for the symmetrical positioning - isn't this obvious from the symmetrical grid? I feel very dim asking this, but other posters have asked about / commented on the symmetry, and I'm lost as to how "their entries are positioned symmetrically" is useful information beyond the evidence of my eyes...

Apologies if these are silly questions, or asking for too much help. I accept that I almost certainly won't be able to finish this one, but would just like to feel like I've given it my best shot! Any help much appreciated.

Durban, your post really has me baffled. Why is 'Norah's first duty to the setters'? I've always thought of the Forum as a place to seek and give answers and to have discussions, wide-ranging discussions, involving all aspects of puzzles. It's been really interesting at times to see some crosswords that have seriously disappointed me have been praised to the heavens by others - and vice versa! I'm sure setters, like the rest of us, know that you can never please everyone.

Oops, brain clearly not firing on all cylinders yet this morning. I meant to write that I've solved 3 from Set A and 12 from Set B.

Maitresse, Yes, the order of clues in each set is as you say. The symmetry refers to the placement in the grid from each set, i.e. if the first entry is from set B, then the final would also be set B. Good luck.

Maitresse, you are correct that in each set the across clues are listed before the downs. But the symmetry point is not obvious from the symmetrical grid. Imagine the first two clues from set A filled the top row, and the first two from set B filled the second row, and also that the bottom row was set B. That would be symmetrical, right? Now swap round the top two rows. No longer symmetrical, as the top doesn’t map to the bottom, etc. And each set must be symmetrical

Sorry, a part of that was cut out. It should have read:

Imagine the first two clues from set A filled the top row, and the first two from set B filled the second row, and also that the bottom row was filled by two from set A and the row above it by two from set B. That would be symmetrical, right? Now swap round the top two rows. No longer symmetrical, as the top doesn’t map to the bottom, etc.