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Exactly, Galfridus, for all we know, Mr Green likes to be busy, and is himself also very disappointed with the lame endgame, the blank grid entry.

Another gripe about Mr Pilcrow, which I didn't previously voice : the extra words just aren't clever. To find extra words with beginning and ending letters in order to fulfil 2 messages is probably a job you could give to a child of 5.

All in all, a poor puzzle for the festive period...

Meursault - I think what galfridus is saying, politely, is exactly what I felt on reading your earlier post - that it was critical by implication of John Green. It seems you hadn't intended that - good, for I found it lacking grace and was going to reply along the lines of "ne tirez pas le pianiste".
As it is, I believe all's well, and as one whose first completed and submitted Listener (didn't win!) was in 1952, feel able grandly to wish all readers a happy new year.

Then you'll know, Durban, that it is strictly a question of logic. One earlier comment suggested that Mr Green would have an easy week. As if, perhaps, to commend the (not for the first time) ridiculous delete-all ending to a puzzle. The extension of that logic is that if Mr Green requires an easy week, then surely he should be pensioned off. My own suggestion is that maybe he prefers to be busy, therefore this puzzle is as much a disaster for him as for everyone else.

Funny how the issue has attracted quite a few irregular contributors...

Just some thoughts on forums and submissions. I understand that spoilers are not to everybody's liking and that forums that assist are a bit cheaty (is that in Chambers?) but I doubt I would have been able to complete many of these in my first year without the odd push in the right direction. To be honest, I would probably have given up and even stopped buying the paper. Submitting an entry after some help is not a major crime - there are no huge spoils to be gained and it simply makes it more of a handicap race with brain power and experience balanced by a bit of a leg up. How far does one take complaints or guilt about using help? I doubt there are many that don't use tools or peers beyond Chambers. It would be a fool who pretends to have purer abilities and I personally enjoy and benefit from such interaction in many ways, as I am sure do others. I think the unwritten code of not giving too much away too early here works fine - few will leave the puzzle alone for long and hence gain very little help. Just a little nudge over personal mini hurdles. I am sure it would be obvious to all if the spoilers went too far too soon and anybody posting too much would know soon enough that they may have overstepped the mark. Of course one can submit after help - we all have a conscience and mine is balanced by the thought that I help others, keep the numbers up to encourage continuation, keep Mr Green employed and would give a second winnings to charity.

Oh come now, poor Mr Green! Everyone deserves, and most require, a holiday - I hope he enjoys the respite. Durban, submitting one's first Listener in 1952 is a veritable achievement - very much respect!

Just to clarify, my previous post was in response to the critics of Mr Green, not to rrrrobbo

I seem to remember the identical themes being used in a previous puzzle not that long ago - can anyone else remember the specific details ?

rrrRobbo, I agree with much of what you say. There is history, and much of that comes down to another site refusing to give help of any kind, even though the site advertises itself as a source of help. So, where do you go from there ? To an extent there is an equal and opposite force on this site; if there is any justification whatsoever, put the answer into the public domain. I often see responses from people such as "Thanks for putting me out of my misery." Which, a) is the kindest thing you can do for another person, and b) is itself kind feedback.

The history of the different sites and the subject of Mr Green are interwoven. I have no resentment of Mr Green at all - I've never even met him - but the job he does is more than just pull 3 winning entries out of a box (which takes no time at all). There is a demand for a tower of vanity, from people who imagine that solving a crossword makes them very clever : for league tables, silver goblets, a dinner with setters, etc. And much of Mr Green's time is spent in supporting this demand. Most of the people we're discussing reside on another site (where due to their vain pursuit to be the cleverest of the clever, no answers may be given). However, I've noticed that the same people are not averse to crossing to this site for help.

Thanks Meursault. I would actually not be opposed to marking my entries as 'needed a little assistance' but if the prizes were given on effort alone, I certainly would not be found wanting! I think I will actually start noting how much help I need to see if I get any better next year. Even if I needed none I would check here each week, probably before completion, to see if I could help others. If that means accidentally picking up a few tips then so be it. If were to be invited to the dinner I would politely deem myself unworthy! It takes more than I possess to not feel the pleasure from submitting an entry and have the excitement of seeing my name in the paper. That said, my conscience does have a point when the cheaty line has been crossed and I do refrain from sending entries in.

That's very interesting, meursault and rrrobo. I was quite unaware of dinners and silver goblets, although I've been doing the Listener for about four years (never won it, although I have won the Inquisitor and EV). Personally, I think it's impossible to say when helping becomes cheating and so I don't see any unfair play at all. I see this website as no different from asking a member of the family or a friend at the pub for help. To that end I notice that occasionally among the lists of prize winners there are two people who have worked together and so share the prize - a husband and wife team, say. Obviously they have helped each other and those who award the prizes see no problem in that so why should we? Having said that, I think it can spoil things if too much is given away too soon.