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Grunger

Your post reminded me - I didn't have any problems with Khartoum, it worked for me.

I am sure it is only your pies that are on the shelf ... and not for long!

Malone

Thanks - that's cheered me up. I sent the Times a list of -ess words, but have had no reply yet. I hope they use some.

Grunger

A pity the Times haven't taken advantage of your generosity. What a bunch of ungrateful wretches - or wretcheresses?

PS Are you a wine drinker? I picked up a Christmas present for you today - a very nice Piesporter, I think it's German. H'mm, I've just realised that splitting the word in two could be a more substantial offering - Pies and Porter, probably very filling!

Malone

Thank you, that's so kind of you. I drink wine occasionally, but prefer beer, so the Piesporter is very welcome. I get irritated with the wine trade's rubbish about a hint of oak, full-bodied, fragrantly delicate etc., so a wine with a complex, earthy flavour of steak and kidney pie is right up my street. Cheers!

Grunger

Hope you've enjoyed any wines that have come your way, with or without a suitably august pie.

Two recent clues for you...

Female singer in church, one with long hair (8)
Domestic help currently upset about mother (5)

The latter answer is fine, though my initial reaction was 'What?! Who says that?' Chambers confirmed the validity.

Malone

Thanks for the clues. Is the first 9 letters? - chantress ?

Second - who refers to the cleaner as "woman" - char, charwoman etc? When I was a cleaner, that was what I was called, which was fine. I didn't think about it at the time, but perhaps cleaneress or cleanress would have been better. I think I prefer the latter.

Grunger

Thank - and sorry about giving the wrong count for the first clue. I knew you'd get it anyway, it's probably a word you use regularly?

The definition in Chambers makes 'woman', domestic help, perfectly valid - but it's so anachronistic, I would have avoided using it.

grunger

I think I prefer simply cleaner, male or female.

Malone

I have sung in church, but have never used chantress. It reminds me of enchantress, another word I avoid.

Re woman - in my opinion, because a word is defined in dictionaries, this does not make the use acceptable. I suppose it is OK in crosswords though.

Grunger

I'm so used to 'chanter' meaning a thing (in bagpipes, the pipe with fingerholes, on which the melody is played), that 'chantress' looked distinctly odd!

Yes, woman= cleaner, domestic help would never be acceptable in the real world. It's OK, but just OK, in crosswords. And I suppose it gave the much-loved char and daily a day off?