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Recent posts about split infinitives and other grammar points have prompted me to start a new thread.

I am one of those who was never taught grammar and only came across it when I started to teach English as a foreign language. At that point my lack of education became almost embarrassing. I vividly remember one of my first lessons in which an advanced adult student had to explain to me the difference between a ‘defining relative clause’ and a ‘non-defining relative clause’ and, more importantly, how to recognise them!

Grammar rules are vital when learning a language but we English teachers are required to spend a disproportionate amount of time explaining some of the apparent absurdities of the language such as:

We use ‘take after’ to indicate, loosely, to inherit a characteristic. It has nothing to do with the common definition of ‘take’. Similarly, how can you kill time or catch a bus?

While the instruction, in the present, is “You must wear a life jacket” it has to become, in the past, “We had to (not musted) wear a life jacket”

When talking about a future event, we say, for example, “When I reach London” and not “When I will reach London”

When making a suggestion we often put it in the past tense – “It’s time we left”.

I know that there are often good reasons for the way we use the language but it can make life difficult for learners – and teachers.

I tend to blame Shakespeare for most absurdities, on the basis that if it was good enough for him it should be good enough for us. It usually works!

The whole point of the use of grammar is make whatever you say crystal clear, with no room for any misunderstanding, which has to be a good thing, does it not ?

Good morning Kenyatta,

I find your comments very interesting, particularly so since now I am back in France, I sometimes help youngsters from the village when it is time for them to take their Bac.

As you say, there are cases where I have to tell them 'never do this', or 'always do that', and sometimes there are some kind of rules I can give them which they have to learn (and accept even if it sounds weird to them - a rule is a rule and there is no arguing)

At least when learning a foreign language, we can make some comparison with our mother tongue and this can be a great help - but that is so only if we know the rules of your own language!

On the other hand, your fairly exhaustive list of irregular verbs (those that don't make their preterit in ED) is a real NIGHTMARE to many students! Unfortunately, when it comes to memorising them (and even though I do not like this type of learning) I am afraid there is no other solution but to learn these 150 or so most common verbs by heart, for there is not much logic in their formation.

I guess the positive point about the English language is that there is no problems with verbs and adjectives agreement, as well as your ability to avoid the subjonctive whenever you can (eg 'it's time we left')

For what it's worth!