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buzzb

21st July 2018, 16:47
Another very tough Listener for 2018. As much as I admire the construction, I think it is flawed in that not all the ambiguities can be resolved by following the instruction from the across extra words. For example, that does not help resolve the two unches in 6 across or 44 across. Those are only resolved by the unstated requirement that the final grid have real words/phrases throughout.

I have a problem with the final entry to 32 across.

The first letter to 35d occurs nowhere in any of 32a, 41a, 43a or 45a. So that letter is the unch. The last letter to 35d is in 32a but not 41a, 43a or 45a. So it must go in the first position of 35d. (I'm referring to the initial grid fill). But that letter needs to be the unchecked second letter of 32a in order for the final entry to be a real word. Where am I going wrong?
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dryden

21st July 2018, 17:50
Buzzb, I'm having the same problem, though I don't think the first letter of the initial entry for 34 has to go in the unchecked cell for 32. I assume the answer to 32 is adjectival, so ends in Y, and the Y must go in the unchecked cell for 32, making a real word in the final grid.
However, that conflicts with my conclusion reached a while ago that the the letters in the unchecked cells of across entries were in the same positions as the clued answers, so, for instance, the unchecked letters of the entries for 6a and 44 are the same as the final entries.
In 32a that does not appear to be the case.
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keepatit

21st July 2018, 18:15
Dryden, do you not have the same issue with 40ac? You are right about the adjectival form for 32a, which solves buzzb’s problem. It so happens that in all the other across clues the unchecked letter falls where it would if the answer was entered unjumbled, but there is no explicit requirement for that. Infelicitous, maybe, and perhaps a weakness in construction, but the puzzle works perfectly well, and the unchecked across letters remain in the same place in the final grid
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dryden

21st July 2018, 18:28
Keepatit, yes, you're right, my working assumption fails there as well.

My more serious problem at the moment is locating the text of the relevant poem. In the one I have found with those words from the down clues the fifth word of line three is not six letters, so I assume there must be another poem with those words. I have a full grid apart from that central rectangle.
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buzzb

21st July 2018, 18:44
Ah - with the adjectival form, the problem goes away.
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keepatit

21st July 2018, 18:44
Dryden, you’re unlucky if you have found a different poem. Googling the first two words of the down message should take you straight there
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dryden

21st July 2018, 18:55
Thanks Keepatit. I was indeed looking at a different poem by a poet suggested by the first two words formed by initial letters from the extra words from down clues. The last three words are a quotation from one of his poems. What an unfortunate coincidence.
I now have the right poem featuring id in the initial grid.
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reynard

21st July 2018, 19:01
dryden - I was in the same (wrong) place, at the same time.
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meursault

21st July 2018, 19:29
It's a remarkable poem, the line about "passionate intensity" especially so. And though it refers to one particular sequence of events, it could equally be used to describe so many repetitive sequences in history. Eternal recurrence. So, although this poem was featured in the Listener many years ago, I'm very happy that the setter has brought it to life again.

The use of 'second' letters is no coincidence.
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keepatit

21st July 2018, 19:29
The fact that more than one person has gone down this blind alley suggests it might not be an accident. Likewise the trap for the unwary at 32ac.

But kudos to you, Dryden, for managing to complete the grid without having the poem or reverse engineering from the instruction found in the across clues. That’s most impressive
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