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and now I have the quotation and name too! Relief, but well worth the effort! Thanks again.

For what it's worth, Meursault, you seem to have misinterpreted that thread, although to be fair it's not too surprising. I was actually complaining about the threads being deleted far more than I was about you posting in them. It seemed to me that there was no reason for the second thread in particular to have been removed. You had posted in it, nothing particularly unreasonable from what I recall, but it vanished anyway. So, in fact, I was complaining about what appeared to be overzealous moderating.

Yes, I suppose my thread implicates you as the cause, but I think that's fair enough. You resurrected the debate. You then continued it into a pair of other threads (and, for that matter, this one), even after it was clear that your arguments weren't going to be taken on board. At the very least that makes your contribution the catalyst for what followed.

If you checked later in the thread you're referring to, you'll see that I (and others) have even accepted some of your points: "... perhaps Meursault has even done us all a favour", I said; also "[Meursault has made] a reasonable point that a public forum is a public forum". I even took the trouble of coming over here, mainly for the reason that it seemed clear that a discussion at all was impossible at AB. Had you made your point and left it at that, without helping to bring it to a personal level, maybe none of this would have happened.

Solely responsible? No. Responsible to a large extent? I know my opinion on that.

No apology is necessary, though. You have your opinion of me, and I've long since gone past caring what strangers on the internet think of me. I hope I've been reasonable here, at least.

I'm enjoying the kerfuffle as much as anyone, except perhaps my wife and some of her friends...oh yes and Captain Johnston. Come to think of it most people likes a good laugh more than I do. But that's beside the point.

But.... the repeated use of the phrase "public forum" to describe AB or this site just is not correct. They are privately owned sites in the business of selling ads, and the owners are going to run the sites with that in mind. So if the editors at AB ban folks who upset the coterie on the Listener thread, it's because they think that's the revenue-maximizing move. One can boycott their advertisers, or better yet click the bejeezus out of the ads but not buy anything (annoying the advertisers, who will leave) but that's as far as you can take it. Likewise if Ash Young (owner, according the tiny print below) wants to kick me off here, he has every right.

If either site was truly public, ie taxpayer-supported, you could complain to your MP that your free speech rights were being infringed. Otherwise, freedom of the press is reserved for those who own a press.

OK, game back on!

Kilgore Trout, there's a third option: download and install the free, open-source program Adblock Plus, which I've been using on both IE and Firefox for around two years. It eliminates all pop-up and mouse-over ads while leaving the unobtrusive ones, for those who want to encourage website owners to adopt a more user-friendly method of generating the revenue they genuinely need.

I shall now wait to see how long it takes Ash Young and his (her/their?) moderators to delete this post and my account.

I think that it says a lot about Jim360 that he refers to those who challenge him as ‘culprits’. I guess that I am one of those, but he misremembers what was said. There wasn’t hostility to the idea of anyone getting help to solve a Listener at all as he claims, rather it was said that he should persevere a bit more if he wants to learn and not ask for help here so that he could be the first to post on AB (which he did at the time). He was also told that some wouldn’t agree with his view that it was fine to ask for help here and then claim on AB to be all-correct and on course to go the The Listener dinner.
I have no problem whatsoever with solvers asking for help, but I do think that it is sad that in the process some like Jim have completely devalued the all-correct status and what it stands for.
I am not a culprit who has long since disappeared as Jim describes me but a keen solver and setter who doesn’t normally comment on sites like this but felt the need for once to say something. I felt the need again to say something as I don’t like being misrepresented nor referred to as a culprit.

I recently commented that this site had become boring and trevor 'for once' agreed with me so may I say thank you for your hysterical posts - please keep it up!

As one who replied immediately to meursault's question in a rather "spirited" fashion (without, I hope, seriously offending anyone), looking back I feel the exercise has been worthwhile. Even if we must agree to differ on some points, I think first of all, it has shown how on this forum open , even emotional exchanges are tolerated by those responsible for the forum, unlike on AB, where whole threads repeatedly get deleted without explanation or justification. I have a good deal of respect for my opponents, but still feel "we" were right to complain after years of putting up with what was obviously not fair, whatever the commercial interests of these forums (of which I was not so clearly aware). The general tone was not hysterical but considerate, and in the end productive. I hope at least this little conclusion meets with the agreement of most participants. Just felt I had to say that! Very different from on AB, where one gets accused behind one's back of being mentally ill just because one doesn't want to share their form of exclusivity. Enough said!

@garaman
I don't think the invitation to The Listener dinner has been given for some years now, because an all-correct is so much easier (relatively) to achieve.

You say "some like Jim have completely devalued the all-correct status and what it stands for".
I hadn't seen his postings in quite that light, but allowing submissions from husband and wife, etc, in my view devalues it even more.
There's not that much difference, in principle, between Fred and Ethel (that dates me, doesn't it) collaborating at home and the sharing of tips that goes on here. In fact I'd go so far as to say that any couple who submit entries jointly shouldn't be included in the statistics, as neither has actually solved the Listener.
When I had my one-and-only all-correct it was before I had access to the Web, so was 'all my own work'. It can never be the same again, and I do wonder what purpose the statistics now really serve. I no longer submit entries.

Ollie, Jim thinks (or at least did at the time) that it was fair enough to ask for answers and be considered all-correct. I think as I said that devalues the status of all-correct. I accept that you and others may disagree with this view, but I should be able to express it without being referred to as a culprit.

@garaman
It wasn't my intention to malign you, and you do make a valid point. My apologies if that's the way it came across.
What I'm try to say is that the statistics have become meaningless since the widespread use of the Web. No matter how subtle the hints may be, very few people are likely to be able to honestly say they solved it themselves.
When the comments from this site and AB get back to JEG (despite his not having a machine) I wonder whether he will consider retiring gracefully. Then the Listener might just be seen for what it should be - a challenging game and not a medium for elitists to massage their over-inflated egos.