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dryden

11th February 2018, 07:54
Replying to myself, I meant the fourth sentence, not the third in the previous comment.

Having started all over again and checked every possibility at every stage very carefully I am forced to the conclusion that it's not possible to change 14d so that 24a is a non-word without then making one or more of 10d, 15d or 20d impossible to change according to the rules. I'm certain that 15d can have only one possible final entry, and that retains the W.

Reading that sentence again I can see that it is possible to read it as meaning that an across entry needs changing to continue to sequence but that it doesn't have to be changed by virtue of the fact that it s a non-word.

I think the preamble is very misleading indeed and has caused unnecessary headaches for many solvers. Since all but three of the changes to across entries are essential to avoid non-words I think the existence of those three is a serious grid weakness.

We've had a run of excellent puzzles, all quite challenging but totally fair to solvers. This is the weakest this year, and I have doubts about its fairness. Apart from anything else the object is very obscure and parochial (at least to me). Is it retrievable from a well-stocked library, as per Listener notes for setters?
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meursault

11th February 2018, 08:59
Good morning, Dryden. In reverse order of your points.

The object can be found if you visit wikipedia for the 4,2,7 you've exposed in the grid. The initial site tells you about the history (from as far back as Heraclitus, so the paradox is akin to the river and the changing water in it. But then there is reference to another wiki site with a list of different examples. The setter's chosen object is referred to there. Also, as commented previously on this thread, the setter makes a big hint of the object with the sentence "This in turn..." If still stuck you might want to google random words from that sentence together with the 4,2,7.

I thought the concept of the puzzle was good, the construction was generally okay, but the process of making word changes became a bit of a bore. I'm not convinced by my own suggestion that there is a loophole for across clues not to become intermediate non-words, but if true, that ambiguity is a very big negative for the puzzle. At the moment I don't see any other options.

15D, if I have it right, is a bit lame in that the change is simply from a noun to the associated verb's past participle. And the 2011 TCD doesn't include a version with an 'e' in penultimate place. But maybe I have that wrong too...
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dryden

11th February 2018, 09:36
Thank you Meursault but I'm not stuck. I finished yesterday late afternoon at the time of my post @#58. Ever since I have been checking and double-checking each stage in the sequence of changes to resolve the issues raised in recent posts. I found the object by the method you describe but Wikipedia is not a recognized Listener resource, hence my comment on its obscurity.

In resolving the issue about non-words/real words people have commented that the preamble bit about non-words doesn't necessarily apply to all the across entries. But neither does it apply to all down entries, so what's the point? After the change of the second letter of 24a (following the change to 14d) we are left with a real word for 10d - DORSELS. So none of the interim entries is necessarily a non-word. If the sequence were different and 9a were changed before 10d 24a then it would be a non-word, but I don't see how that sequence can be arrived at.

Re your comment on 15d, that's another weakness. I suppose the justification is that the apostrophe given in Chambers stands for E, but it just adds to a catalogue of unsatisfactory elements to this puzzle. I agree the idea is a good one, but the execution is weak in my view.
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wintonian

11th February 2018, 09:38
Hi, Meursault, I’m also worried about the final answer for 15dn - reminds me of the discussion about the validity of “testas” as a plural for “testa” a couple of weeks ago. The introduction to TCD, in the section “Using the dictionary”, has this to say about inflections: “Plural forms and verb participles, etc are shown only if they are irregular in formation, or warrant special clarification.” Unless the 2016 version of Chambers is different from the 2003 and 2014 editions, the past participle given, with an apostrophe instead of an “e”, suggests that the final answer to 15d isn’t a word recognised by Chambers.

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smithsax

11th February 2018, 09:57
I missed the real word issue because I did not make corrections in sequence. It is much simpler to repopulate a blank grid starting with known letters (the modified 13 across and all the unchecked letters) and then looking for words which differ from the original by 2 letters to fill in the rest. It was quite easy.
I must have got the correct changes as the final object is correct.
Having checked back I agree that there are weaknesses in the construction - unless we are all missing something.
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gem94

11th February 2018, 09:58
The Chambers Dictionary iOS app accepts the word with the ED ending
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d2e

11th February 2018, 11:07
If you use the sequence 13a 6d 41 20d 7a 15d 9a 10d 24a 14d 16a etc the problem with real words disappears. I spent too much time with 13a 2d etc....
I generally find it better to believe the setter is correct and that I have missed something. Only ????? and horses!
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meursault

11th February 2018, 11:23
How right you are, d2e.
And I think at least one contributor on this thread hinted at doing the changes in the reverse sequence to what had been listed here. I wasn't convinced that the setter was responsible for the problem, merely lacking in seeing the option...which in hindsight is obvious...
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dryden

11th February 2018, 11:42
I'm sorry, I don't follow. if the first change to 13a is to the penultimate letter not the first you get a nonsensical phrase that is not an answer that fits the definition (ie the puzzle title). The first change has to be to the second letter of 13a, surely.
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d2e

11th February 2018, 11:50
the first 4 letters in the grid fill also denote a vessel.
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